by lwertheimer | November 3rd, 2011
Please post your responses to the following questions before 5 pm on Tuesday, November 8. The article may be found here.
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare?
2). Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.”
3). How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article?
4). Post one question on the article that you would like to explore in more depth during the group discussion.
1. What was the source of the conflict between the Franciscan order and the order of St. Clare?
A: The source of the conflict comes from a promise Francis made to Clare. He promised that all his successors would care for her community of San Damiano.
2. Explain why both Groups were concerned about distinguishing between Law and Custom?
A: In the 13th century Mendicant orders struggled to find a place for women to participate. Mendicants had trouble reconciling the apostolic way of Life with respect to Women. The Franciscans and the order of St. Clare are concerned with distinguishing if pastoral care was to be offered as law or custom because it shaped the future expansion of the order. When Minister General Bonaventure withheld pastoral services it was his attempt to discourage expansion and send the message “Franciscans don’t want to expand the female component of the Franciscan order.” The Order of St Clare countered by appealing to the Pontiff. They hoped the Pope would legalize the relationship to provide legitimacy for the order of San Damiano and its successors. Audacious nuns is an example of how Mendicant orders struggled adapting the concept of Vitae Apostolica for Women. The Nuns are audacious because they are trying to exercise their religious rite.
3. How did the order change over the period of this article?
A: By the 14th century, the men and women participating in the Franciscan order evolved. An exampleof this was when Pope Benedict XII recognized the nuns and decreed that friars owed them pastoral care regardless of the rule that they followed. This pastoral care requirement made the friars vocation more like that of the secular clergy. Second the nuns eventually succumbed to pressure from the papacy to adopt corporate wealth as part of their rule. Because of the rapid expansion of the organization, the Franciscan order was forced to make accommodations in its doctrine that were different than the simple apostolic ideals Francis and Clare first conceived.
4. What question would you like to explore in more detail for discussion.
A: Per our ME book Franciscan nuns live cloistered all the time how is that compatible with the wandering preaching lifestyle of apostolic life?
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare?
The Franciscan order was upset that the Clare’s said it was law that they had to help them, when the Franciscans believed they had complete freedom and were helping to be good.
2). Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.”
It was custom for the women to not have so much involvement in church matters. When they wanted to grow and do more things, the men were not supportive of this at all they claimed custom didn’t allow women before but now the women were asking for papal bulls and laws to be passed to allow them to have more moving room in the order.
3). How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article?
The Order at first were cared for by the Franciscans. They vowed to live without materials so the men collected food for them and listened to them. Eventually the men grew tired of taking so much care of them and feeling that they were neglecting their own interests they wanted to cut back their involvement. At this time the women sought full acceptance into the Franciscan order.
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare?
The conflict which existed was that of pastoral care for the Order of St. Clare. The Franciscan Order felt bothered by idea of having the responsibility of providing services and sought to be free of said burden. The Order of Saint Clare wished to have a permanent execution of pastoral care provided to them.
2). Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.”
The Franciscans wanted to insure that the services provided for the nuns were interpreted as custom rather than a binding contract. They wished for the two orders to remain distinct and independent. They did not want to be obligated to give pastoral care, rather do it out of their own free will and kindness.
The Clarisses desired confirmation that they were part of the Franciscan Order. They longed for a legal contract to bind the friars to act out the pastoral duties owed to them and also to legitimize that the Order of Clare was apart of the Franciscan order.
3). How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article?
The Order of Clare eventually had to accept the papal orders which led to the attainment of material support which contradicts the order of Clare’s original goal of poverty. This essential part of their doctrine had to be altered as the adoption into the Franciscan order did not succeed.
4). Post one question on the article that you would like to explore in more depth during the group discussion.
What motivated the pope’s legalization of pastoral care to the nuns later on in the century?
1): What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare?
The origins of the conflict date back to when Francis of Assisi promised Clair, his first female follower, that he and his successors would tend to her community of San Damiano by providing pastorial care such as: visiting, ministering, and collecting alms for the women. As Clair’s order grew, and more and more convents sprang up, Francis and his followers went back on this promise, viewing it as a burden to provide for so many and stating that he had only intended for the Franciscan order to provide for those who dwelled in the San Damiano convent. When the two orders were eventually given separate cardinal protectors by Pope Urban IV, a legal battle then proceeded to erupt over the long standing issue.
2): Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.”
The Franciscans wanted the freedom to choose who they ministered to and for their services to be purely voluntary. They wanted to ensure that their actions of providing pastoral care to the nuns was seen as nothing more than custom, thus keeping the orders separate and themselves open to choosing whether such services would be provided and to which convents. If this act were viewed as or made into law, they would lose this freedom, having no choice but to stay and minister to the nuns whether they desired to do so or not. As for the Clarisses, they desired to ensure that they would be guaranteed their pastoral benefits from the Franciscans rather than solely relying on the Friars good will alone. Relying on their good will would always mean that there was a risk of having the Friars suddenly pack up and leave, whereas a law would ensure the women would be constantly cared for. They also wanted a legal bonding to the Franciscan order, which they had long considered themselves to be apart of, despite the Friars desire to keep the two groups separated.
3): How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article?
As time went by, the many houses and sects of the order ended up becoming far too large and un-united, to the point where they all ended up living under completely different rules and following many of the different constitutions that had been created for them throughout the years. As a result, the convents each held a variety of different obligations and levels of strictness concerning issues such as poverty and material support, which were two big ideals held by Clair when she started out. Eventually, they were given the legal pastoral care they desired, largely due to the Franciscans becoming an order of ordained priests, but one constant that seemed to remain through it all was there push for becoming an official part of the Franciscan order.
4): Post one question on the article that you would like to explore in more depth during the group discussion.
Don’t really have a question, though I would like to comment on my love of the irony in the article. It seemed very ironic to me that even despite the uproar caused by the Franciscans over the issue of providing pastoral care the group almost always seemed to go along with providing the service whether they were forced to or not. I found the ending especially humorous when it turned out that the order did eventually end up legally providing for the nuns anyway. It almost seems to me that they should have just given in form the get go and avoided all of the fuss in between.
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare?
This conflict stems from the original founder Francis of Assisi and his promise to look over and take care of the convent of San Damaino. As the group grew it became more of a burden than anticipated for the Franciscan order and, in essences, backed out of the deal leaving the Order of St. Clare to fend for themselves.
2). Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.”
The Franciscans wanted this obligation of pastoral care to remain custom rather than law because it meant if they did it for law, it would no longer be seen as their own good will rather than forced.
3). How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article?
The order started small and manageable. As time went on and more nuns entered the order, it became harder to keep everyone in the order on the same page. This means that different factions had different ideals. Finally, do to papal decree, the Order of St. Clare received its official ruling that made the Franciscans give pastoral care to them.
4). Post one question on the article that you would like to explore in more depth during the group discussion.
I see that others had posted this question and I was wondering the exact same thing. Why would the Pope agree to give the Order of St. Clare his endorsement on required pastoral care from the Franciscans?
1. What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare?
The Franciscan order had grown dissatisfied because the Clare’s had stated that by law they were required to aid them. The Franciscan order felt that they were not obligated to aid the Order of St. Clare, especially if it was to interfere with the progress of their own order.
2. Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.”
Women had never played a role in the affairs of the church the way that men had up until this time period. The women wanting to expand themselves in the affairs of the church, and have more responsibilities, suggesting that laws be passed in order to give them more freedom, and hold them in the same regard as men in the church were held.
3. How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article?
The Order of St. Clare changed from being under the protection of the Fransiscan Order to being more autonomous. The sisters decided to live away from the material temptations of the world. The men of the church started to feel like them taking care of the sisters was affecting the way they were living negatively, taking time and energy away from the goals of the monks, which had them pushing to have women in the church be less active in church affairs, thus forcing the women to aspire to be a part of the Fransiscan Order.
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare?
The conflict was because Francis had promised Clare that he would always care for the community by visiting the sisters and ministering to them. Since the women lived in poverty like the men, he was going to also collect alms for them. But when Franciscan women became more popular and more houses for them were popping up, the women were seen as a burden to the men and that they were putting more effort into ministering to them than they were to their own vocation. Francis seemed to only have meant obligation to San Damiano. He was not actually interested in “directing and organizing an order of enclosed women.”
2). Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.”
They were very concerned that their actions of ministering to the women were voluntary, not ordered by law. If it was a law, they would not have the choice of whether or not they wanted to. They wanted to be viewed a separate. This was shown when they would protest whenever there was an attempt to tighten the bond between the men and the women.
3). How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article?
They started out by being basically fully dependent on the Franciscan men for everything. But as time went on and the men became more and more tired of ministering to them, they began to look for becoming an official part of the Franciscan order. They different houses became more disconnected and lived under their own rules and ideals of poverty.
4). Post one question on the article that you would like to explore in more depth during the group discussion.
One thing I didn’t understand was, if the men in the Franciscan order were so upset by having to provide for and minister to the women, why didn’t they just not? There was no law against it at the time, so why make such a big deal about it?
1. what was the source of conflict between the Franciscan order and the order of St. Clare?
A. Francis of Assisi had promised Clare a follower of him that he would aid her order, while doing so many of the Franciscans became angry because watching them kept them away from doing their religious duties.
2. explain why both groups were concerened about distinguishing between “law” and “custom”.
A. for centuries women have never been in the same position of men when it comes to church customs, now they were able to form their own religious orders and live on their own without the care and aid of men. with this the custom of the church with men would surely change with women in the same level as them.
3. How did the order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article?
A. at first the Sisters were under the aid of the Franciscan order, a male dominated order, and over time the sisters gradually became more independent from them and started doing their own thing. the women orders followed the male orders in throwing away the material life of the world and living a more monastical life.
4. list one question on the article that you would like to explore in more depth during the group discussion.
A. it doesn’t really matter to me the article wasn’t very interesting.
1) The source of conflict between the Franciscans and the Clarisses stems from Friars’ unwillingness to give pastoral care the nuns. St. Francis ensured the nuns following St. Clare would be taken care of by the Friars but at the time, there was only one house. The Order of St. Clare attempted to follow St. Francis’ rule of absolute poverty and therefore could not produce any financial assistance to support themselves. As her order expanded, more houses were associated with the Franciscans and this put a financial strain on the order. The association with the Franciscans made it so that instead of wandering and preaching, some of the friars were assigned to take care of the nuns and were essentially the same as monks from other orders.
2) The two orders were concerned with defining what was law and what was custom because responsibility over the well being of the Clarisses was defined differently between the two. Custom was determined by whatever the newest biography of St. Francis was written. Newer versions of St. Francis’ biography tended to side with the Franciscan monks and supported the idea that the only house they had to give care for was the original. The nuns wanted their support to be defined by law to ensure that the Franciscans would continue to support them regardless of what the newest books said.
3) The Order of St. Clare changed overtime due to the new rules being written for the order by different sources. The newer rules steadily separated the nuns from the Franciscans. St. Clare’s rule emphasized the importance of poverty while later rules made it so the the houses had to acquire material support and become more like other monasteries.
4) Were the Franciscans more concerned with the financial strain of supporting the nuns or that some of them assigned to give pastoral care to the nuns were no longer able to wander and preach?
1) The source of conflict between the Franciscans and the Clarisses stems from Friars’ unwillingness to give pastoral care the nuns. St. Francis ensured the nuns following St. Clare would be taken care of by the Friars but at the time, there was only one house. The Order of St. Clare attempted to follow St. Francis’ rule of absolute poverty and therefore could not produce any financial assistance to support themselves. As her order expanded, more houses were associated with the Franciscans and this put a financial strain on the order. The association with the Franciscans made it so that instead of wandering and preaching, some of the friars were assigned to take care of the nuns and were essentially the same as monks from other orders.
2) The two orders were concerned with defining what was law and what was custom because responsibility over the well being of the Clarisses was defined differently between the two. Custom was determined by whatever the newest biography of St. Francis was written. Newer versions of St. Francis’ biography tended to side with the Franciscan monks and supported the idea that the only house they had to give care for was the original. The nuns wanted their support to be defined by law to ensure that the Franciscans would continue to support them regardless of what the newest books said.
3) The Order of St. Clare changed overtime due to the new rules being written for the order by different sources. The newer rules steadily separated the nuns from the Franciscans. St. Clare’s rule emphasized the importance of poverty while later rules made it so the the houses had to acquire material support and become more like other monasteries.
4) Were the Franciscans more concerned with the financial strain of supporting the nuns or that some of them assigned to give pastoral care to the nuns were no longer able to wander and preach?
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare?
Conflict between the friars and nuns was rooted in the nuns’ belief that pastoral care should be extended to them from the friars. Many Franciscan friars, however, believed their duties were to the church first.
2). Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.”
The friars wanted to remain legally unbound from providing pastoral care to the Order of San Damiano, whereas according to the nuns the “custom” practices exerted by the friars should remain intact. The friars didn’t want to have to continually provide assistance to the nuns. Even after the nuns failed at legally binding the friars to be their spiritual protectors, they continued to pursue their interest of being fully adapted into the Franciscan Order, even rejecting the Urbanist Rule.
3). How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article?
The Order of St. Clare was at first dependent entirely upon the Franciscan Order for support, both spiritually and financially. Gradually, the nuns became more independent, as the friars attempted to distance themselves from providing care. Pope Urban started moving the Order of St. Clare to greater autonomy, but the custom practices would, in the end, prevail over the legal proceedings on friars caring for nuns.
4). Post one question on the article that you would like to explore in more depth during the group discussion.
Knowing his sister was a nun (as noted in the footnotes), how did Pope Urban justify his actions towards the Order of St. Clare? Did he purposefully not want them to be abandoned, or did his sister’s stake in the situation have any impact on his decisions?
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare? Francis was close to Clare and he said that that he would support the order under the San Damiano. He was also getting a lot of heat from the Franciscan Order due to that the order of St. Clare was growing in numbers.
2). Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.” They were torn between the law and custom because at the time they didn’t know what to do with women in regards to participation in church. The law and traditional role said that they should be subjugate and followers of faith. The order wanted more religious freedom and movement within the church. They wanted to change the way the church “laws” related and defined their role in the church.
3). How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article? They first were small but as time and popularity progressed, the order of St. Clare grew. Under Papal decree they were order to accept material goods from the Franciscans. They did implement a stratification system so each part of the order had an individual duty.
4). Post one question on the article that you would like to explore in more depth during the group discussion. Why are women that hold power always prosecuted in history?
1.) The source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Claire was the Franciscan Order was protesting the constant dependency the sisters of St. Claire had on the Order. Also, Phillip Longo was appointed in 1221 to oversee the house of the sister’s of Claire which angered Francis of Assisi, who referred to Longo as an ulcerous tumor and destroyer of the Franciscan Order. The Franciscans did not wish to see an advancement of female orders within the Order, and under Longo, sister houses were established in central Italy for three decades.
2.) Both groups were concerned about distinguishing “law” and “custom” because of the issue of poverty. The sisters had different idea of poverty and some houses were not abiding by the laws and customs set forth by the church. Pope Urban IV had issued new a constitution that the nuns were to follow and it set forth guidelines for a strict life of poverty. Urban also felt that the friars were responsible for the care of the nuns and names the house the Order of Saint Claire that separated them from their unique spiritual heritage.
3.) The Order of St. Claire changed over the period of time covered in this article by being recognized as a true impoverished house of nuns and developed into the orthodox model of sister houses. The house also adopted new legislative practices issued by the Pope to unify them more along with traditional Catholic sister orders.
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare?
There was a promise made by Francis of Assisi to his female follower, Claire that he and whoever succeeds him would take care of her and her community of San Damiano. This included collecting charity for the nuns, hearing their confessions, and providing holy sacraments such as the Eucharist. It seems the Friars Minor began to protest providing for the convents as the number of them grew because it stopped the friars from fulfilling the work they felt called to do.
2). Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.”
The Friars Minor wanted the services they provided to be seen as customary and that it was a voluntary service that they provided. They did not what to be obligated to provide the services to new convents and believed that services should only extend to the existing communities of San Damian. The Franciscan nuns believed that the care they received was and should be legally binding which would oblige the Franciscan Minister General to minister to all convents under the Franciscan order whether they were existing currently or would be in the future.
3). How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article?
The Order of St. Clare changed in that individual houses had to request to follow the rule of poverty from the Pope or they were required to have material support to sustain them. Pope Urban also took the “Poor ladies” out of their name. Eventually they moved away from the beliefs shared by Francis and Claire in regards to poverty and became more like other orders.
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare? Francis was close to Clare and he said that that he would support the order under the San Damiano. He was also getting a lot of heat from the Franciscan Order due to that the order of St. Clare was growing in numbers.
2). Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.” They were torn between the law and custom because at the time they didn’t know what to do with women in regards to participation in church. The law and traditional role said that they should be subjugate and followers of faith. The order wanted more religious freedom and movement within the church. They wanted to change the way the church “laws” related and defined their role in the church.
3). How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article? They first were small but as time and popularity progressed, the order of St. Clare grew. Under Papal decree they were order to accept material goods from the Franciscans. They did implement a stratification system so each part of the order had an individual duty.
4). Post one question on the article that you would like to explore in more depth during the group discussion. Why are women that hold power always prosecuted in history?
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare? Francis was close to Clare and he said that that he would support the order under the San Damiano. He was also getting a lot of heat from the Franciscan Order due to that the order of St. Clare was growing in numbers.
2). Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.” They were torn between the law and custom because at the time they didn’t know what to do with women in regards to participation in church. The law and traditional role said that they should be subjugate and followers of faith. The order wanted more religious freedom and movement within the church. They wanted to change the way the church “laws” related and defined their role in the church.
3). How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article? They first were small but as time and popularity progressed, the order of St. Clare grew. Under Papal decree they were order to accept material goods from the Franciscans. They did implement a stratification system so each part of the order had an individual duty.
4). Post one question on the article that you would like to explore in more depth during the group discussion. Why are women that hold power always prosecuted in history?
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare?
The primary source of conflict was that the Franciscan Friars felt put upon by the house at San Damiano. It had been the intent of Francis that the Franciscans provide and minister to the sisters, but with growth of the order the new houses posed a threat to take up much of the time of the friars.
2). Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.”
What is law and what is custom is very important to distinguish. The friars were concerned that their spiritual care for the sisters would be seen as a law and thus they would be obligated to uphold ministering to the sisters (especially including those outside of San Damiano), where as if it were customary the obligation is not a legally binding one.
3). How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article?
The order began as fully reliant upon the Franciscan friars, but as time passed and the friars began to refuse pastoral responsibility and duty to the sisters they became increasingly independent. Due to this Pope Urban required that each house be able to materially support themselves and as such were no longer considered “poor ladies”. The pope also urged for a centralized governing of the houses as well as encompassing laws to standardize the houses and make them more like other orders.
4). Post one question on the article that you would like to explore in more depth during the group discussion.
What is the purpose in normalizing the Order of St. Clare? Is it merely to standardize faith and allow the order to function on its own or was the pope threatened by an all female order that was unique from the other female orders of the day?
1)Conflict helped shape institutional identy. Pope Gregory IX intervened between nuns and friars and ordered to provide for enclosed women
2)custom exempted friars from added obligations. laws “more solito”,were orders from the Pope that were binding.
3)No new convents between 1228-1245 and in 1247 a constitution for the order of San Damiano 14 new convents by Pope Innocent IV.
4)Why the false pride in triumphant letter by Bonaventure?
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare?
The main source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare was just how the Friars minor were going to care for the order of San Damiano headed by St. Clare. St. Francis of Assisi had provided for the pastoral care of the nuns of San Damiano to ensure they received the sacraments and guidance from the Friars Minor. When the Order of St. Clare had become a well followed order, the friars were no longer able to give the care needed to the nuns and so they sought guidance from the pope to determine just what the terms of pastoral care would be.
2). Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.”
Both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom” in order to ensure the livelihood of their orders. The custom set forth by St. Francis had been an oral tradition passed onto them without significant reinforcement from subsequent leaders of the order. The Franciscan order felt that they had the right to administer their pastoral care to whomever they wanted and did not want to be forced to grant care to order of San Damiano. The order of St. Clare in turn professed that since St. Francis had established that they be cared for by the Franciscans that they were guaranteed the pastoral care of the Franciscan order. By making the customs law, both sides had much to gain or lose respectively.
3). How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article?
As time progressed during the conflict between the two orders, the Order of St. Clare became a hodgepodge of different sects operating in their own way. The order had lost the rigorousness established by St. Clare when the order had been incorporated. The subsequent nuns of the order had become less associated with the vow of poverty that had been the original intent of the order. Towards the end of the article, the fight for the nuns to be absorbed by the Franciscan order became less distinct and vigorous, and the nuns ultimately went along with the decisions made by the papacy.
4). Post one question on the article that you would like to explore in more depth during the group discussion.
If St. Francis had established the Order of St. Clare, why were the Franciscans not more willing to provide for the order if they had stemmed from the same founder?
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare?
It appears that the conflict had to do with the increasing number of convents for the women, had placed a large burden upon the brothers/friars to minister to them. The article suggests that the women refused to compromise and asserted their beliefs that it was the friars responsibility and duty to take care of them. Further, it seems that the women were only concerned about a close affiliation with the Franciscans, and were resigned to force the men to take care of their needs without concern how their demands were affecting the brothers or their monetary.
2). Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.”
I’m probably wrong on this as I don’t feel the article provided enough information on “law” and “custom” to answer this question. However, what I think is that the nuns wanted the friars to be forced to take care of their needs and if it was a “law”, then they would have no choice to do so. However, I think that the friars wanted the obligation of providing pastoral care to the nuns to be a “custom”, wherein their services were voluntary and not something they had to do.
3). How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article?
The order continued to grow and open houses in an ever growing area. With their complaints to the pope increasing, the pope was forced to issue “bulls” to the friars to try to resolve the issues. With so many houses and so many rules and laws being put into effect, the article indicates that the various order houses were following different rules. Further, it appears that some of the houses were not living the poverty way of life. The women over time became bolder and more demanding of the friars and the pope. I was surprised by their outright defiance of the pope and their ultimatum to choose one of two solutions.
4). Post one question on the article that you would like to explore in more depth during the group discussion
What was the women’s motivation or underlying reason for forcing a close relationship with the friars? Their dependence on the men was more like a wife on a husband to meet all of her needs, rather than the need for religious issues.
Are you aware that this blog posts 5 hours later than when the post is actually submitted?
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare?
The conflict came from the promise of St Francis Assisi to Claire, his first female follower that he and his successors would always care for her community. However, the Friars were unhappy with the amount of houses that the followers of Claire had, since the Friars believed that it was too time consuming and prevented them from fulfilling their own vocational obligations.
2). Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.”
It seemed that the Friars were set on tradition and custom to look over the order of St. Claire and that custom was the reason that the Friars should look after them. When Urban came to the Franciscans and told them that it would not be a legal bond, then that legal bond would be forcing them into doing something. Whereas, if the Franciscans were volunteering to help, then they would be doing their duty as good Franciscans, rather than being forced, then prosecuted for doing something wrong. But, the nuns’ wanted a legal binding so that they would be cared to safeguard their interests.
3) How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article?
Obviously, the problem in the first place was the order was become to grand for the Franciscans to support, which meant that the Franciscan order was decreasing or that the order of St. Claire was increasing, which I believe to be the right outcome. If the Pope had a direct hand in being the catalyst for these talks, then the order had to be something that he was aware and concerned with. If he was not concerned with the order, then he would had not taken part of it and cast them off as non-believers or a group that was not a treat to the church.
4). Post one question on the article that you would like to explore in more depth during the group discussion.
I would like to know how close the Franciscan order and the order of Clare were in comparisons to their rules and beliefs. Would this still have been a big issue if it was the Franciscans taking care of another male order (ex. The Dominican Friars)>?
1. The conflict between the friars and nuns because originally St. Francis promised Clare that his order would always are for hers. He specifically refered to her community at San Damiano, but later the nuns expected this to extend to all members of the order of St. Clare, while the friars wanted it to pertain only to the original community.
2. The importance of distinguishing between laws and customs comes into play when discussing this conflict. The friars wanted to assert that providing pastoral care to these nuns was a custom and not a law or rule of the church. They wanted the orders to remain independent so that they would be free to lead their lives as they wished, wandering and preaching, without having specific legal obligations of service to the nuns and their new foundations. If there was a law requiring pastoral care then that would also imply legislative unity, bringing the nuns under the franciscan order, erasing their distinction. This became especially important after Clare’s order became highly popular and experienced rapid growth, which meant they were more of a burden and responsibility for the friars.
3. Clare’s order changed over time, from her original ideal against material support shifting to agreeing to the Pope’s rule requiring material support. Also, though the women comprimised in this aspect, they were adamant about receiving pastoral care and because of this were able to gain papal support and a law of requirement from Pope Benedict XII in 1336.
4. Did the women believe they were hold more clout as an order with ties to the Franciscans, rather than only being an all female order? Did they feel it was necessary to have male support in order to be viable and respectable?
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare? For one the friars had issues of females within their order and the other issue was the support the friars were somewhat obligated to provide to the nuns to keep them alive and functioning as a household.
2). Explain why both groups were concerned about distinguishing between “law” and “custom.” A law the claims that the monks must give support and ministry to the nuns removes the freedom aspect of the ministry being able to choose to minister too. If it was not customary to have the friars preach to the nuns it was a forced spiritual activity that holds no real meaning in the hearts and minds of those involved.
3). How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article? The order changed from a house attached to the Monks in a dependency that was not bound by law but was enforced by the papacy to a group that was named for its own order and became somewhat more self-reliant.
4). Post one question on the article that you would like to explore in more depth during the group discussion. I want to know why it was so important to have this order be supported by the monk instead or having the order be a little more self reliant in its ability to feed and support itself by working like the monks had to and having the people around the female orders help them more.
1). What was the source of conflict between the Franciscan Order and the Order of St. Clare?
The problem seem to come from the promise of Francis of Assisi an the promise to take care of the convent of San Damiano, they larger they grew the more of a burden they became, an he wanted to back out of his deal leaving them to fend for themselves.
3). How did the Order of St. Clare change over the period of time covered in this article?
Although nuns had entered into the monasteries, the new rules meant separate houses and the monks still had to provide support for the nuns because they were not self supporting.